The king asked: "Venerable Nagasena, is it so that one does not transmigrate1 and one is reborn?"2

"Yes, your majesty, one does not transmigrate and one is reborn."

"How, venerable Nagasena, is it that one does not transmigrate and one is reborn? Give me an analogy."

"Just as, your majesty, if someone kindled one lamp from another, is it indeed so, your majesty, that the lamp would transmigrate from the other lamp?"

"Certainly not, venerable sir."

"Indeed just so, your majesty, one does not transmigrate and one is reborn."

"Give me another analogy."

"Do you remember, your majesty, when you were a boy learning some verse from a teacher?"

"Yes, venerable sir."

"Your majesty, did this verse transmigrate from the teacher?"

"Certainly not, venerable sir."

"Indeed just so, your majesty, one does not transmigrate and one is reborn."

"You are clever, venerable Nagasena."

The king asked: "Venerable Nagasena, is a soul to be found?"

The elder replied: "According to ultimate reality, your majesty, a soul is not to be found."

"You are clever, venerable Nagasena."

The king asked: "Venerable Nagasena, is there any being which transmigrates from one body to another?"

"Certainly not, your majesty."

"If, venerable Nagasena, there is no-one who transmigrates from one body to another, then would not one be released from evil deeds?"

"Yes, your majesty. If one is not reborn, then one would be released from evil deeds. But indeed because one is reborn, your majesty, then one is not fully released from evil deeds."

"Give me an analogy."

"Just as, your majesty, if some man were to steal the mangos of another, would this be an offense worthy of punishment?"

"Yes, venerable sir, it would be an offense worthy of punishment."

"But, your majesty, since these mangos that he stole were not the same mangos that the other had planted, why would it be punishable?"

"Venerable sir, they came into existence by means of those mangos that were planted, therefore it would be punishable."

"Indeed just so, your majesty, it is by the deeds that one does in this mind-and-body, lovely or unlovely, that one is reborn in another mind-and-body, therefore one would not be fully released from evil deeds ."

"You are clever, venerable Nagasena."

The king asked: "Venerable Nagasena, if someone passes away and is reborn in the Brahma world, and if another passes away and is reborn in Kashmir, which one takes the longer time, and which the shorter?"

"They are the same, your majesty."

"Give me an analogy."

"Your majesty, where is your town of birth?"

"There is a place called Kalasigama, there I was born."

"How far away, your majesty, is Kalasigama from here?"

"About 200 yojana,1 venerable sir."

"How far away, your majesty, is Kashmir from here?"

"About 12 yojana, venerable sir."

"Go on then, your majesty, think about Kalasigama."

"I have thought about it, venerable sir."

"Go on then, your majesty, think about Kashmir."

"I have thought about it, venerable sir."

"Which thinking took a long time, your majesty, and which a short time?"

"They were the same, venerable sir."

"Just so, your majesty, if someone passes away and is reborn in the Brahma world, and if another passes away and is reborn in Kashmir, they happen in the same time."

"Give me another analogy."

"What do you think, your majesty, if two birds fly in the sky and one sits in a high tree, and the other in a low tree; if these happen at the same time, the shadow of which one would settle on the ground first, and which one later?"

"They are the same, venerable sir."

"Just so, your majesty, if someone passes away and is reborn in the Brahma world, and if another passes away and is reborn in Kashmir, they happen in the same time."

"You are clever, venerable Nagasena."

The king asked: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one who does evil unknowingly?"

The elder replied: "Indeed, your majesty, for him who does evil not knowing is the greater demerit."

"In that case, venerable Nagasena, would we doubly punish one who is our prince or king's chief minister who not knowing does evil?"

"What do you think, your majesty, who would get burned more, one who knowing picks up a hot iron ball, ablaze and glowing, or one who not knowing picks it up?"

"Indeed, venerable sir, he who not knowing picks it up would get burned more."

"Indeed, your majesty, in the same way the greater demerit is for him who does evil not knowing."

"You are clever, venerable Nagasena."