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[Great Western Vehicle] [Right Livelihood] [Waste to Fuel] [Filter & Pump Manifold design 1] [Filter & Pump Manifold design II] [Filter & Pump Manifold design III] [Filter & Pump Manifold design IV] [SVO Links]


Vegetable Motor Oil Dialog


Mon Nov 6, 2006 10:45 pm

#11842 of 11873

Jeffrey Brooks <jhanananda@yahoo.com>

jhanananda

Canola-based Motor Oils

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/vegoil-diesel/message/11842

Last winter I went to the Engineering library at the University of Arizona and acquired the lubrication specs on a wide range of vegetable oils, primarily from an ASM manual for hydraulics.  After examining those specs I determined that it was worth considering running vegetable oil in the crankcase of my 1987 Toyota Van with a gasoline (petrol) engine. A friend just emailed me an article on the same subject, which is reviewed below:

In the middle of July this last summer I replaced the oil in the crankcase of the engine on the above van, with filtered recycled vegetable oil, then drove across the Mojave Desert at noon.  The engine did not exhibit any more difficulty with those extreme conditions than it normally did, because it already had an over-heating problem, however, since vegetable oil continues to lubricate up to about 500 deg F, whereas motor oil boils at about 212 deg F (100 C), then the engine would have continued to be lubricated even while overheating. 

In fact I observed that even while the engine was red-lining on its temperature gauge the oil pressure gauge still showed good pressure, which is otherwise unusual with petroleum as a crankcase lubricant. Also, I had to replace less of the oil in the crankcase at the other end of the desert than I would normally have had to do.  Overall I would say my little experiment was very successful.  I would, however, suggest that straight vegetable oil should be used only under warm conditions, such as when the ambient temperature is over 32 Deg F (0 C), because otherwise staring up is likely to be difficult.  It is ideally suited for warm climates such as the deserts of the world, especially for oil cooled engines.

It was interesting to note on page 29 of the article reviewed here the following: "During the time of steam power, one of the best lubricants available was derived from rapeseed oil."  I had no idea that rapeseed oil had been used more than 100 years ago as a lubricant.

It was also worth noting in the same paragraph the following: "Early petroleum motor oils were highly ineffective.  These oils were composed of basically three hydrocarbon types: naphthalene, paraffin, and aromatics.  None of these structures are chemically functional and petroleum chemists quickly found the addition of phosphates and sulfur improved the lubrication ability of petroleum. By chemically functional, the components of petroleum are considered inert materials and basically function as carriers of metallic salts that provide the basic lubrication needs of modern internal combustion engines."

On page 31 it was good to see that vegetable oils have a very significant improvement in lubricity and durability over petroleum oil lubricants "Pin-and-vee analysis conducted by Rhodes Consulting show significantly less friction and a reduced friction for a prolonged period of time when compared to a conventional 5W30 motor oil (Fig. 1a).  Comparisons of the oil with a synthetic 10W50 show the bio-based oils also outperform synthetic oils (Fig. 1b).  Expectations are that the oil should increase fuel economy of vehicles using bio-based oils over conventional oils by 5%.  Fuel economy should increase by 1.5% over use of synthetic oils.  In addition, the vegetable motor oils can withstand far higher temperatures before oil breakdown than either the conventional or synthetic oils.  In conventional oil comparisons, petroleum oils failed at 400 psi while the canola-based oils failed at 1050 psiÉ In comparisons to synthetic oils, the synthetic oils began to fail at 400 psi failure of the bio-based oils did not occur until 825 psi (Fig. 1b).  Rather surprisingly, the vegetable motor oils outperformed the synthetic oil in most applications."

It is also worth noting the following on page 31 "Results of the engine deposit test (Fig. 2) show that in both the EPA and Automotive methods, the biooils produced significantly less ash buildup.  Ash is associated with loss of engine power and incomplete combustion."

"Acid numbers were determined using a potassium hydroxide titration method.  Results (Fig. 3) show the acids generated after 6,500 km in a 2000 Ford Ranger truck were half those of the petroleum standard.  These low acids show mechanical fracturing of the oils do not induce a reduction in pH.  The low acid numbers indicate less potential etching of metal contact surfaces by the oil."

"Oxidative stability analysis (RBOT) was able to demonstrate that bio-based motor oils were more chemically stabile than 10W30 petroleum oils under extreme heat and pressure (Johnson 1999).  In addition, volatility losses were significantly less than conventional oils and comparable to synthetic oils (Fig. 4).  The low VOCs implied in Fig. 4 for synthetic and bio-based oils mean that by 2003, they will be the only oils meeting new US and international standards for air quality."

And, on page 32 we have even more encouraging information regarding a reduction in pollutants as a result of using vegetable oils as a lubricant in internal combustion engines: "Working in conjunction with the United States Postal Service, delivery vehicles were monitored through a period of six oil drain intervals.  The used oils were analyzed using atomic absorption for zinc, lead, copper, and tin.  Zinc is commonly found as an oil additive.  Lead, copper, and tin are typically components of bearings.  Decreases in all metals after the initial conversion (drains 1,2...6) from petroleum (drain 0) show the heavy metals were derived from engine sludge rather than from wear induced by the bio-oil (Fig. 5). "

"Oil changes from petroleum to bio-based oils also show very significant reductions in tailpipe exhaust emissions (Fig. 6).  In a petroleum to petroleum cycle (Pet-pet), hydrocarbons (HC), carbon monoxide (CO), and nitrous oxides (NOx) all show increases over the 6,500 km test period.  Conversion from petroleum to a bio-based motor oil (pet-can) has an immediate and dramatic decrease in exhaust emissions.  Continued use of the bio-oil continued to decrease HC production while giving no additional losses to the already depressed CO and NOx production."

"Utilizing the postal data illustrated in Fig. 6, a new EA85 Ford Explorer provided by the US Postal Service was evaluated for non-methane hydrocarbons (NMHC) or VOCs, carbon monoxide (CO), carbon dioxide (CO 2), hydrocarbons (HC), and nitrous oxides (NOx).  Comparisons were made using the manufacturers' recommended 5W30 conventional oil and a bio-oil.  Results show a very highly significant reduction in NMHC, CO, HC, and NOx and significant reduction in CO 2 (Fig. 7).  Reductions from the petroleum standard were  NMHC: 25%; CO: 48%; HC: 32%; NOx: 80%, and CO 2: 1%."

On page 33 we find the following good information: "By conversion of one million vehicles to a bio-based motor oil, the United States could annually reduce hydrocarbons by 1,214.8 t, carbon monoxide by 96,444 t, and nitrous oxides by 1,561.1 t.  The value of Emission Reduction Credits currently in the United States is $7,300/ton for NOx, $7,000/t for NMHC, and $2,000/t for carbon sources.  In effect, a fleet of vehicles has the ability to repay itself for the use of a bio-oil as a motor lubricant."

The authors summary should inspire us all to replace the oil in our crankcases as soon as possible: "SUMMARY Canola-based motor oils have rapidly evolved into a competitive product.  In terms of pricing, they are highly competitive with synthetic motor oils.  They are also the most "environmentally friendly" of the motor oils available maintaining properties of non-toxicity and biodegradability.  In terms of functionality, they have exceeded expectations by surpassing both conventional and synthetic oils in the tests conducted.  As a low friction fluid, these tests indicate vegetable motor oils, or bio-oils, are a competitive product in modern engine applications. "

"A pleasant surprise has been the response of engines in terms of tailpipe and manifold gas emissions. The reductions in nitrous oxides, carbon monoxide, non-methane hydrocarbons, and hydrocarbons provide an easy and effective way to reduce air pollution.  The value of these exhaust emissions has now become established and, in effect, may have more value than the oil itself.  The impact of conversion to a bio-based motor oil for each million automobiles driven 18,590,000,000 km per year (17,699 km per vehicle) would be staggering.  Hydrocarbons from automotive exhaust would be reduced annually by 1,101 t; carbon monoxide would be reduced by 87,475 t; and nitrous oxides would be reduced by 1,416 t."

Canola-based Motor Oils by Duane L. Johnson, Blaine Rhodes, and Robert Allen, Reprinted from: Trends in new crops and new uses. 2002. J. Janick and A. Whipkey (eds.). ASHS Press, Alexandria, VA.

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/rightlivelihood/fuel/Canola_Oil_as_Lubricant.pdf

Best regards,

Jeffrey S, Brooks
the Great Western Vehicle 
PO Box 93
Bolinas, CA 94924
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/rightlivelihood/fuel/index.htm

Tue Nov 7, 2006 2:55 am

#11843 of 11878

Lez <lez.briddon@...>

lez_briddon

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

'Rapeseed / Canola as crankcase oil'

>motor oil boils at about 212 deg F (100 C)

Is that right?

I once tried it as a motor oil, after 3 weeks I had big black chunks of 'stuff' in the bottom of the crankcase.

Looked like lava rock but black, like the black stuff you scrape off a bbq

Lez


Tue Nov 7, 2006 1:39 am

#11844 of 11878

"Kamka" <kamka@...>

nikitakamka

RE: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

is it true for canola-based oil only? does the other vegetable oil also applicable as well?


Tue Nov 7, 2006 10:01 am

#11847 of 11878

"derek_obanion" <derek_obanion@...>

derek_obanion

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

So you used Canola as motor oil, and it turned nasty? I was so hoping the article was for real, I'd love to use canola as a motor oil. It's so cheap I'd just change it weekly, and burn the used stuff in a wood stove. It would also make the engine 100% petrol free.

I was also pondering using WVO as coolant directly. Use your fuel as coolant. Just make sure you pre-heat the engine on cold days. No problem for me, I use a electric coolant pre-heater on my car with a timer. It runs for a hour before I leave for the day.

-Derek


Tue Nov 7, 2006 10:13 am

#11848 of 11878

"derek_obanion" <derek_obanion@...>

derek_obanion

Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Additional thought: Perhaps the stuff formed was the result of gunk being cleaned out from all the dino oil. Perhaps if you had replaced the oil a few times, it would stay clean? That seems to be a common theme with bio-fluids replacing dino-fluids (fuel and lubricants), all the built up gunk comes out. Biodiesel cleans diesel fuel tanks and puts lots of gunk in fuel filters. Change filter, keep using biodiesel, no more gunk.

Thoughts?

-Derek


Tue Nov 7, 2006 11:13 am

#11849 of 11878

Lez <lez.briddon@...>

lez_briddon

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

Yes, but I dont know why, I put it in as a test as I remembered someone saying small (50cc) race motorcycles did it / tried it in the 80's

When I removed the sump and found the 'rocks' I thought it was a heat issue that had 'burnt' it, but maybe its something to do with the previous oil or old deposits being washed out?

I cant afford to experiment with the car on this, I only have the one car and currently no job so could not buy another one!

Maybe someone else on here as a 'test' vehicle, I expected it to work, and still think it could....

Lez


Tue Nov 7, 2006 11:04 am

#11850 of 11878

Joe Villines <myascape@...>

myascape

Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Has anyone ever tried canaola as a replacement for 2-cycle engine oil? I think I remember hearing about it somewhere before, but can't remember where. I'll read the report, but try it first in my lawn mower I think...

Joe Villines

MyaScape Enterprises

DBA Joe's Lawn Care

www.joes-lawncare.com

www.myascape.com

(515) 865-8812 (Office)

(515) 770-1767 (Mobile)

For WVO and BioDiesel Supply, please visit:

http://stores.ebay.com/MyaScape-Enterprises

You may also be interested in: http://jvillines.qhealthzone.com/


Tue Nov 7, 2006 11:55 am

#11851 of 11878

Joe Greene <joegreene@...>

jdg1112001

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

The best oil for lubrication (if you can get it) is oil from Meadowfoam seeds. It is used as hydraulic oil. And it is used as a whale oil substitute in making cosmetics.

Joe Greene


Tue Nov 7, 2006 11:22 am

#11852 of 11878

"Derek" <derek_obanion@...>

derek_obanion

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

I might try it. I'll just keep changing it every few days, and see if it works or doesn't over the long term. Thinking of doing the same with coolant. Replace all coolant with WVO, and all engine oil with fresh new canola.

Everything I read says awesome things about plant based oils for lubrication. Seems like another oil industry conspiracy that we aren't using them now. Got me paying $25/gal for the best synthetic (dino derived) oil, when $3/gal canola would work as good or better.

The high boiling point and low freezing point of soybean oil, also suggests it would make a good coolant. As good as the Evans NPG I use now at $32.50/gal, but waste soybean is free. If anyone knows of a strong reason NOT to try it, I ask to speak now.

-Derek


Tue Nov 7, 2006 12:55 pm

#11853 of 11878

"Colin Reed" <reedxuk@...>

reedxuk

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Have a look for Castrol R30 and R40. They are castor based racing oils with a very distinctive smell!

Colin


Tue Nov 7, 2006 1:01 pm

#11854 of 11878

"John Bolding" <jnbolding1@...>

jhb478

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

Not a reason to not TRY it but I'd bet dollars to donuts that the heat transfer rate is not near as good as water/antifreeze. Water is also able to hold a LOT of btu per a given cube, have no idea if SVO of some variety comes close, should be a fun experiment. John


Tue Nov 7, 2006 2:59 pm

#11856 of 11878

"Charles Weaver" <charles@...>

chimneysweep...

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

Oil dosn't boil


Tue Nov 7, 2006 9:11 pm

#11857 of 11878

Darald Bantel <o1bigtenor@...>

o1bigtenor

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

The heat transfer capabilities of any oil in comparison to water based coolants SUCK!!! I do not know the exact differences but as a machinist the soluble coolants work much better at maintaining temperatures on the  machined parts than when oil based coolants are used. The oil based coolants are used when there is more of a need for lubrication and not so much for cooling!

Darald


Wed Nov 8, 2006 12:57 am

#11858 of 11878

Lez <lez.briddon@...>

lez_briddon

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Yes but you cant replace your lube oil with water........

Well like I said I ran it for about 3 weeks, pulled the sump and found it to be lumps of black based rock, but maybe it had washed that out from somewhere.

Engine ran fine.

Lez


Wed Nov 8, 2006 7:30 am

#11859 of 11878

"Steve Spence" <sspence@...>

sspence65

RE: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

Vegetable oil does. At about 650F it boils and will self sustain ignition.


Wed Nov 8, 2006 8:01 am

#11860 of 11878

"Steve Spence" <sspence@...>

sspence65

RE: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

We use a skidloader (bobcat) that is oil cooled.


Tue Nov 7, 2006 7:11 pm

#11861 of 11878

"Kamka" <kamka@...>

nikitakamka

RE: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

... .but hydraulic oil does not get over 100'C? and does not have to strugle with soot, unburned-fuel, etc . ..


Wed Nov 8, 2006 11:57 am

#11862 of 11878

<jon@...>

mailitplace

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

I am willing to try using vegetable oil as a coolant for a test. I have a 1990 F350 Diesel pickup that I just recently bought for next to a steal. It had a slight engine knock to begin with, and It has since developed a problem of leaking coolant into the oil crankcase and oil into the coolant system. most likely a blown head gasket, as it was very sudden.

I am going to have to replace the engine or rebuild it any way, so why not try and see if it will work using oil as a coolant. As far as I can tell, the best case scenario it will leak into my engine and help with lubricity and/or fuel mileage...lol I guess we'll see. Worst case is it will seize the engine. either way, I am not much worse off than before.

I will advise of the results. Experiment to begin next weekend.

Jon Bradshaw

Sulphur Springs, TX


Wed Nov 8, 2006 12:06 pm

#11863 of 11878

Joe Greene <joegreene@...>

jdg1112001

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

I'm just saying that Meadow Foam seed oil is more suitable as a crankcase lubricant than some other vegetable oils - except perhaps Castor bean oil. Such use for any vegetable oil needs to be tested thoroughly - in a lab preferably.

Also - the Jatropha Curcas plant is a cousin of the Castor bean plant - so it is possible J. Curcas seed oil should be tested for crankcase use also.

Joe Greene


Tue Nov 7, 2006 8:49 pm

#11864 of 11878

daniel sprigg <dsprigg01@...>

dsprigg01

RE: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

Re: xxx [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Castor oil would be a better choice. it can take the heat. old time race car drivers used it in the 1950's to the 1970's. caster oil is used in castrol brand oil blended with dino oil hence the name.

as far as the radiator is concerned. I believe it would be a mistake. the oil even if very thin would not flow well through the system. and may not lubricate the water pump sufficiently


Wed Nov 8, 2006 12:44 pm

#11865 of 11878

"Schurr, Larry \(SN\)" <larry.schurr@...>

ppine57

RE: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

Do not do this.

Veg oil has 51% of the heat capacity of water. That means that your entire cooling system, when filled with vegoil, can only disappate (at equal volumes!) 51% of the heat it used to do. That's not counting flow losses attributed to a pump and system designed for water and not oil.

L.


Wed Nov 8, 2006 2:29 pm

#11866 of 11878

Peter Adams <petermassure@...>

petermassure

Re: xxx [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

I was under the impression that you could not mix castor oil and normal hydrocarbon based motor oils, certainly back in the 70's we had to drain the sump of a Ford Cortina that had mixed the 2 oils in it, the 2 oils split and had it ran for any length of time the resultant bits would have blocked the oilways in the bearing and seized the engine.

Pete

Derby UK


Wed Nov 8, 2006 7:30 pm

#11867 of 11873

"Kamka" <kamka@...>

nikitakamka

E: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils

take one more step ahead : use the same oil for coolant and engine oil ;-)

we'll be waiting for the report.


Wed Nov 8, 2006 7:36 pm

#11868 of 11878

"Derek" <derek_obanion@...>

derek_obanion

Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

I decided against using WVO as the engine coolant. Not because I think it won't work, I still think it would. Granted, it won't be able to cool as well as water, but, my little TDI engine gives off very little heat. Takes very little to keep it cool.

The reason is because what I was really going for was a way to heat the WVO directly. Initially, it was toward using WVO as coolant, then using it as fuel, while topping off the cooling system with cool WVO from a main storage tank.

But in my late night pondering, I think I considered a better way. Use WVO as engine oil, and use the WVO engine oil as fuel. A simple float level valve would keep the oil level in the crankcase at optimum, constantly getting topped off from the main WVO storage tank. The fuel pump would get pressurized oil from after a <1 micron Amsoil bypass filter I already have on the car. So essentially, the engine oil, which has a 6 quart capacity, would get completely replaced every ~75 miles of driving. There would be no time for the oil to get nasty and dirty as is the case with diesels and soot formation, or break down from repeated thermal stress.

Of course, there would be a backup of petrol diesel for cold starts when a engine/oil preheater wasn't available.

-Derek


Thu Nov 9, 2006 10:25 am

#11869 of 11878

"Charles Weaver" <charles@...>

chimneysweep...

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

How about a few less crackpot ideas on this list?


Thu Nov 9, 2006 6:07 am

#11870 of 11878

"Schurr, Larry \(SN\)" <larry.schurr@...>

ppine57

RE: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Uhm, WVO is even WORSE for crankcase lube than it is for radiator coolant. Where your F350 might overheat by simply driving uphill with WVO in the rad, your F350 will simply SHELL itself with WVO in the crankcase.

This will not be pretty. Stomach acid makes a poor replacement for tears. Bile fares poorly in your lungs. There are substances in your colon that belong no where else. Your automobile was designed after very much similar thinking.

WVO makes a good replacement for diesel fuel, but that's about as far as it goes.

L.


Thu Nov 9, 2006 8:19 am

#11871 of 11873

"defenderoflibert" <tag7@...>

defenderofli...

Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

I think that would be a great idea. The key will be coming up with a good design. A float level may or may not be the best way to maintain optimal oil level. I think that an oil pressure actuated valve might be the best route to go. Since most modern engines pump oil from the crankcase up to the head, and have a oil pressure sensor in them, you may want to try to figure out a way to control the flow of fresh oil based on the oil pressure. I think it would be a great idea to have the fresh oil pumped directly into the valve cover and have the warm oil pumped from the bottom of the crankcase, through a filter, and to the injectors. One side benefit (I think) would be that you probably wouldn't have to replace your engine oil filter as often as long as the oil is filtered before being pumped into the engine.

Tim Logsdon


Thu Nov 9, 2006 8:08 am

#11873 of 11873

"defenderoflibert" <tag7@...>

defenderofli...

Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

I think this might be a good idea for someone whose head gasket leaks, causing the coolant and engine oil to intermingle.


Thu Nov 9, 2006 12:38 pm

#11875 of 11878

Jeffrey Brooks <jhanananda@yahoo.com>

jhanananda

Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/vegoil-diesel/message/11875

Hello friends of vegiediesel, Lez, Derek, Colin, Darald, Steve, Kamka, Joe Greene, Joe Villines, Charles, Jon Bradshaw, Larry, defenderoflibert; and thank-you all for posting your most interesting comments to this thread.

I am with Derek on cycling WVO through the engine as a lubricant and thus heating it prior to combustion.  I am also in agreement with using it as a coolant.  Arguably, Darald is correct, oil does not have the heat capacity of water, however, winter time is the time to conduct such an experiment, and why not do it on a vehicle that already has a blown head gasket?  At least water wont be getting into the engine any more.

I hope Jon Bradshaw does his experiment so that we can all benefit from his courage to try it on an old engine. I would suggest those who are going to conduct these experiments do so on an old but working diesel engine.  That way, if the engine dies, who cares? 

Also, for those who want to run oil as the coolant, then I would suggest that you flush the cooling system out really well before introducing oil, because you would not want to mix propylene glycol in with your oil.  Also, you would want to dry the engine out first by running heated air through it over night, that way no water gets into your oil either.

Finally, I had thought about coolant scale sloughing off into the oil, but if one ran distilled water as the base for the coolant for a few weeks and maybe even changed the water out weekly, then the coolant system would most probably be descaled within a few weeks.

I like Derek's idea of a coolant pre-heater in this case.

The article Canola-based Motor Oils suggests that the sludge found by Lez may very well be sludge that was flushed out of the system.  It would be interesting for people to report on this sludge to see if it reduces over time and if so how quickly.  The article also suggests that the first oil change would show significant sludge, but there after there should be a noticeable reduction for the first three changes, then a definite lack of sludge after that.

In response to Kamka's question regarding the use of other vegetable oils: From research I did on the engineering specs of a wide range of vegetable oils, it appears that all have closely related properties boiling at about 500 F and pour point at about 32 F (0 c), and perform adequately as lubricants and hydraulic fluids.

For Joe Greene, I have not heard of oil from Meadowfoam seeds, however I am familiar with a jojoba oil, which comes from a Southwestern USA native seed source.  It has been for a replacement for transmission fluid.

Sources:

Canola-based Motor Oils by Duane L. Johnson, Blaine Rhodes, and Robert Allen, Reprinted from: Trends in new crops and new uses. 2002. J. Janick and A. Whipkey (eds.). ASHS Press, Alexandria, VA.

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/rightlivelihood/fuel/Canola_Oil_as_Lubricant.pdf

Best regards,
Jeffrey S, Brooks
the Great Western Vehicle 
PO Box 93
Bolinas, CA 94924
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/rightlivelihood/fuel/index.htm

Thu Nov 9, 2006 1:50 pm

#11876 of 11878

"Steve Spence" <sspence@...>

sspence65

RE: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Using wvo as fuel, coolant, and lubricant is not a crackpot idea. It's a workable theory that needs the bugs worked out to be practical. We have been working on this idea for a bit ourselves. The main thing is to keep the lubricating oil in constant flush to the fuel system, never let it "sit" around, constantly replenish it.


Thu Nov 9, 2006 10:34 pm

#11877 of 11878

Darald Bantel <o1bigtenor@...>

o1bigtenor

RE: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Considering that about 60 to 65% of the energy in diesel fuel (would be very much the same in veg oil/biodiesel) is released from the engine in the form of heat (I do not remember the ratio of heat from the engine to heat in the exhaust) I do NOT think that using oil for all aspects in an engine is a serious long term solution!

As I live in an environment where I need heat for 7 to 8 months of the year (with a little possible demand for cooling for 2 to 3 months in a precision work place) I am approaching the problem in a very different fashion. I want a diesel that is as efficient as possible. (At 400 kW or larger I found an engine that uses under 195 g/kWhr!!) Then I want to use the waste heat for heating so if things are working well that I get the 35 to 37 % (maybe 40 % if things work well) of the energy in the fuel for motive poser (generator drive in this case) trying to collect another 40 % of the energy for heating. This drastically reduces my costs and gives me a very good ROI.

Now if I could get something where I could cut costs further (ie total system costs) I'm interested. In trying things like replacing the cooling system with a fuel preheat system seem to be retrograde!

Do keep careful track of as many of your variables as possible whilst you experiment then others may decide to replicate your effort to validate it and then anyone can decide if the probably nuisance value is worth the reduction in cost (if any!).

Darald


Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:02 am

#11878 of 11878

"Steve Spence" <sspence@...>

sspence65

RE: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

We already use it for cooling in a skidloader. The skid loader was set up for oil cooling, so that was easy. It just has a bigger radiator and high flow for enhanced heat transfer.


Thu Nov 9, 2006 2:28 pm

#11879 of 11879

Garret F Crisler <gcrisler@...>

gcrisler1

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

I have a Toyota Previa 1995 minivan that has a seperate oil reservior. It uses some sorta float system to maintain the level. I don't know anymore about it, but it might be a place to look.

Garret Criselr


Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:41 am

#11880 of 11880

Jeffrey Brooks <jhanananda@yahoo.com>

jhanananda

Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/vegoil-diesel/message/11880

Hello friends of vegiediesel, Peter; Daniel, John, Lez, Steve, Darald and others; and thank-you all for posting your most interesting additional comments to this thread.  I am sorry that I missed some of your comments, because for some reason someone changed the thread title, so certain contributions to this thread were not retained with the original thread.  I am not sure why someone would change the thread title, perhaps to prevent certain comments from being included in the over-all thread.  Oh well, different strokes for different folks.

In response to Peter's comment about petroleum oil and vegetable oil being immiscible, meaning that they wont mix:  I have found no evidence to this in my original experiment of putting vegetable oil into my crank case, I did not remove the original petroleum oil, I just started putting vegetable oil in because I had 2 gallons of filtered recycled vegetable oil with me, but no motor oil and my old leaker needed more oil, so I put it in.  I saw no evidence later that they did not mix.

Also, 6 months earlier, just for fun, I cut recycled vegetable oil with 20% unleaded gasoline (petrol) and found the two fluids mixed readily.  So, I have concluded that most probably most vegetable oils will mix readily with most petroleum cuts.

Regarding Daniel's concern that the water pump would not be lubricated by replacing the water with oil in the cooling system: no offense, but this concern doesn't make any sense to me, because vegetable oil is a well established lubricant, thus the water pump should be well lubricated by oil, even better so than with water; although arguably vegetable oil is more viscous than water, but then so is propylene glycol. 

However, what should be of concern to anyone conducting this experiment is seals and hoses that were designed for water and/or petroleum oil, may degrade with the introduction or long running use of vegetable oils.  Does anyone know if the standard seals and hoses for petroleum will work with vegetable oil?  I know when I bought hoses for my vegie transfer pump, the hose supplier seemed to think I needed a different and more expensive hose than is used for petroleum.

Regarding Darald's use of a stationary engine running a generator, I think his idea of recycling the waste heat to heat water with a liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger for space heating, is brilliant; however, I do not see why he would want to go to the trouble of replacing the water-propylene glycol mix with oil, unless he just wanted a thoroughly non-toxic system, which is what one would end up with if one converted all of the fluids in one's engine to vegetable oil.

For heating a living/workspace with waste heat I would think one could simply have a large water reservoir that functions as ballast and cooling system for the engine and a warm water reservoir for a radiator style hot water heating system for spacing heating.  All of that plumbing technology is in place and all one needs to do is plumb a hot water space heating system into the thermostat output of the engine, and boom, your in.

Where I would get my vegetable oil pre-heater is by plumbing a loop through the oil pan (sump) from the fuel pump and thus lube the crankcase with vegetable oil and taping a T into the oil sender and direct that to the intake on the fuel filter, which goes to the injector pump.

Best regards,

Jeffrey S, Brooks
the Great Western Vehicle 
PO Box 93
Bolinas, CA 94924
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/rightlivelihood/fuel/index.htm

Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:29 am

#11881 of 11891

Darald Bantel <o1bigtenor@...>

o1bigtenor

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

I would most likely be using a glycol based cooling system as it being stationary I could regulate its temperature so that I wouldn't need to worry about needing to be capable of sitting idle in -40 C temperatures. The glycol (glycerine + alcohol I believe) I would be able to get from my biodiesel waste stream.

Darald


Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:04 am

#11883 of 11891

areal fakeuser <areal_fakeuser@...>

areal_fakeuser

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

I can confirm that biodesil and vegie oil can be mixed in any concentration with regular petro based desiel. I cannot imagine why it wouldn't. All desiel and houshold heating oil in Belgium is between 2 and 5% recycled veggie oil. They don't even bother to tell people at the pump that they are getting a mixture.


Thu Nov 9, 2006 7:05 pm

#11885 of 11891

"Kamka" <kamka@...>

nikitakamka

RE: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

i am an amateur to this subject, have sufficient knowledge on engines, oils, etc. however, i am supporting this idea based on the spirits of experimenter and hobbyist (car freak?). let's do the experiments in a save way, and let the rest of the world take the benefits from the result. there are many places where vegetable oils are far more cheap than ordinary engine oils and diesel fuel. this is a very good idea if we can develop it into practical use for 'amateurs'. at least, keep the spirits fire on! ;-)

best regards,

kamka

(indonesia)


Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:56 pm

#11890 of 11891

"Derek" <derek_obanion@...>

derek_obanion

Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Yes, that's just it. Veggie oil as crankcase oil isn't a working solution in the long term because it would break down or gum up. But by introducing WVO to the crankcase, and taking crankcase oil then as fuel, the WVO functions as crankcase oil for about a hour or less before being burned up as fuel.

-Derek


Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:06 am

#11891 of 11891

Lez <lez.briddon@...>

lez_briddon

Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Which could explain my findings that I had 'lumps of carbon' in the

sump after 3 weeks, but why I never heard it mentioned in the 80's

when it was tried as engine/gear box oil in motorcycle racing, as oil

would have been used just for one race.

Lez


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