Vegetable Motor Oil Dialog
Mon Nov 6, 2006 10:45 pm
#11842 of 11873
Jeffrey Brooks <jhanananda@yahoo.com>
jhanananda
Canola-based Motor Oils
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/vegoil-diesel/message/11842
Last winter I went to the Engineering library at the University
of Arizona and acquired the lubrication specs on a wide range of vegetable
oils, primarily from an ASM manual for hydraulics. After examining
those specs I determined that it was worth considering running vegetable
oil in the crankcase of my 1987 Toyota Van with a gasoline (petrol) engine.
A friend just emailed me an article on the same subject, which is reviewed
below:
In the middle of July this last summer I replaced the oil in the
crankcase of the engine on the above van, with filtered recycled vegetable
oil, then drove across the Mojave Desert at noon. The engine did
not exhibit any more difficulty with those extreme conditions than it normally
did, because it already had an over-heating problem, however, since vegetable
oil continues to lubricate up to about 500 deg F, whereas motor oil boils
at about 212 deg F (100 C), then the engine would have continued to be
lubricated even while overheating.
In fact I observed that even while the engine was red-lining on
its temperature gauge the oil pressure gauge still showed good pressure,
which is otherwise unusual with petroleum as a crankcase lubricant. Also,
I had to replace less of the oil in the crankcase at the other end of the
desert than I would normally have had to do. Overall I would say
my little experiment was very successful. I would, however, suggest
that straight vegetable oil should be used only under warm conditions,
such as when the ambient temperature is over 32 Deg F (0 C), because otherwise
staring up is likely to be difficult. It is ideally suited for warm
climates such as the deserts of the world, especially for oil cooled engines.
It was interesting to note on page 29 of the article reviewed here
the following: "During the time of steam power, one of the best lubricants
available was derived from rapeseed oil." I had no idea that
rapeseed oil had been used more than 100 years ago as a lubricant.
It was also worth noting in the same paragraph the following: "Early
petroleum motor oils were highly ineffective. These oils were composed
of basically three hydrocarbon types: naphthalene, paraffin, and aromatics. None
of these structures are chemically functional and petroleum chemists quickly
found the addition of phosphates and sulfur improved the lubrication ability
of petroleum. By chemically functional, the components of petroleum are
considered inert materials and basically function as carriers of metallic
salts that provide the basic lubrication needs of modern internal combustion
engines."
On page 31 it was good to see that vegetable oils have a very significant
improvement in lubricity and durability over petroleum oil lubricants "Pin-and-vee
analysis conducted by Rhodes Consulting show significantly less friction
and a reduced friction for a prolonged period of time when compared to
a conventional 5W30 motor oil (Fig. 1a). Comparisons of the oil with
a synthetic 10W50 show the bio-based oils also outperform synthetic oils
(Fig. 1b). Expectations are that the oil should increase fuel economy
of vehicles using bio-based oils over conventional oils by 5%. Fuel
economy should increase by 1.5% over use of synthetic oils. In addition,
the vegetable motor oils can withstand far higher temperatures before oil
breakdown than either the conventional or synthetic oils. In conventional
oil comparisons, petroleum oils failed at 400 psi while the canola-based
oils failed at 1050 psiÉ In comparisons to synthetic oils, the synthetic oils began to fail
at 400 psi failure of the bio-based oils did not occur until 825 psi (Fig.
1b). Rather surprisingly, the vegetable motor oils outperformed the
synthetic oil in most applications."
It is also worth noting the following on page 31 "Results of the
engine deposit test (Fig. 2) show that in both the EPA and Automotive methods,
the biooils produced significantly less ash buildup. Ash is associated
with loss of engine power and incomplete combustion."
"Acid numbers were determined using a potassium hydroxide titration
method. Results (Fig. 3) show the acids generated after 6,500 km
in a 2000 Ford Ranger truck were half those of the petroleum standard. These
low acids show mechanical fracturing of the oils do not induce a reduction
in pH. The low acid numbers indicate less potential etching of metal
contact surfaces by the oil."
"Oxidative stability analysis (RBOT) was able to demonstrate that
bio-based motor oils were more chemically stabile than 10W30 petroleum
oils under extreme heat and pressure (Johnson 1999). In addition,
volatility losses were significantly less than conventional oils and comparable
to synthetic oils (Fig. 4). The low VOCs implied in Fig. 4 for synthetic
and bio-based oils mean that by 2003, they will be the only oils meeting
new US and international standards for air quality."
And, on page 32 we have even more encouraging information regarding
a reduction in pollutants as a result of using vegetable oils as a lubricant
in internal combustion engines: "Working in conjunction with the United
States Postal Service, delivery vehicles were monitored through a period
of six oil drain intervals. The used oils were analyzed using atomic
absorption for zinc, lead, copper, and tin. Zinc is commonly found
as an oil additive. Lead, copper, and tin are typically components
of bearings. Decreases in all metals after the initial conversion
(drains 1,2...6) from petroleum (drain 0) show the heavy metals were derived
from engine sludge rather than from wear induced by the bio-oil (Fig. 5). "
"Oil changes from petroleum to bio-based oils also show very significant
reductions in tailpipe exhaust emissions (Fig. 6). In a petroleum
to petroleum cycle (Pet-pet), hydrocarbons (HC), carbon monoxide (CO),
and nitrous oxides (NOx) all show increases over the 6,500 km test period. Conversion
from petroleum to a bio-based motor oil (pet-can) has an immediate and
dramatic decrease in exhaust emissions. Continued use of the bio-oil
continued to decrease HC production while giving no additional losses to
the already depressed CO and NOx production."
"Utilizing the postal data illustrated in Fig. 6, a new EA85 Ford
Explorer provided by the US Postal Service was evaluated for non-methane
hydrocarbons (NMHC) or VOCs, carbon monoxide (CO), carbon dioxide (CO 2),
hydrocarbons (HC), and nitrous oxides (NOx). Comparisons were made
using the manufacturers' recommended 5W30 conventional oil and a bio-oil. Results
show a very highly significant reduction in NMHC, CO, HC, and NOx and significant
reduction in CO 2 (Fig. 7). Reductions from the petroleum standard
were NMHC: 25%; CO: 48%; HC: 32%; NOx: 80%, and CO 2: 1%."
On page 33 we find the following good information: "By conversion
of one million vehicles to a bio-based motor oil, the United States could
annually reduce hydrocarbons by 1,214.8 t, carbon monoxide by 96,444 t,
and nitrous oxides by 1,561.1 t. The value of Emission Reduction
Credits currently in the United States is $7,300/ton for NOx, $7,000/t
for NMHC, and $2,000/t for carbon sources. In effect, a fleet of
vehicles has the ability to repay itself for the use of a bio-oil as a
motor lubricant."
The authors summary should inspire us all to replace the oil in
our crankcases as soon as possible: "SUMMARY Canola-based motor oils have
rapidly evolved into a competitive product. In terms of pricing,
they are highly competitive with synthetic motor oils. They are also
the most "environmentally friendly" of the motor oils available maintaining
properties of non-toxicity and biodegradability. In terms of functionality,
they have exceeded expectations by surpassing both conventional and synthetic
oils in the tests conducted. As a low friction fluid, these tests
indicate vegetable motor oils, or bio-oils, are a competitive product in
modern engine applications. "
"A pleasant surprise has been the response of engines in terms of
tailpipe and manifold gas emissions. The reductions in nitrous oxides,
carbon monoxide, non-methane hydrocarbons, and hydrocarbons provide an
easy and effective way to reduce air pollution. The value of these
exhaust emissions has now become established and, in effect, may have more
value than the oil itself. The impact of conversion to a bio-based
motor oil for each million automobiles driven 18,590,000,000 km per year
(17,699 km per vehicle) would be staggering. Hydrocarbons from automotive
exhaust would be reduced annually by 1,101 t; carbon monoxide would be
reduced by 87,475 t; and nitrous oxides would be reduced by 1,416 t."
Canola-based Motor
Oils by Duane L. Johnson, Blaine Rhodes, and Robert Allen, Reprinted from:
Trends in new crops and new uses. 2002. J. Janick and A. Whipkey (eds.).
ASHS Press, Alexandria, VA.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/rightlivelihood/fuel/Canola_Oil_as_Lubricant.pdf
Best regards,
Tue Nov 7, 2006 2:55 am
#11843 of 11878
Lez <lez.briddon@...>
lez_briddon
Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based
Motor Oils
'Rapeseed / Canola as crankcase oil'
>motor oil boils at
about 212 deg F (100 C)
Is that right?
I once tried it as a motor oil, after 3 weeks I had big black chunks
of 'stuff' in the bottom of the crankcase.
Looked like lava rock but black, like the black stuff you scrape off
a bbq
Lez
Tue Nov 7, 2006 1:39 am
#11844 of 11878
"Kamka" <kamka@...>
nikitakamka
RE: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils
is it true for canola-based oil only? does the other vegetable oil
also applicable as well?
Tue Nov 7, 2006 10:01 am
#11847 of 11878
"derek_obanion" <derek_obanion@...>
derek_obanion
Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based
Motor Oils
So you used Canola as motor oil, and it turned nasty? I was so hoping
the article was for real, I'd love to use canola as a motor oil. It's so
cheap I'd just change it weekly, and burn the used stuff in a wood stove.
It would also make the engine 100% petrol free.
I was also pondering using WVO as coolant directly. Use your fuel
as coolant. Just make sure you pre-heat the engine on cold days. No problem
for me, I use a electric coolant pre-heater on my car with a timer. It
runs for a hour before I leave for the day.
-Derek
Tue Nov 7, 2006 10:13 am
#11848 of 11878
"derek_obanion" <derek_obanion@...>
derek_obanion
Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
Additional thought: Perhaps the stuff formed was the result
of gunk being cleaned out from all the dino oil. Perhaps if you had replaced
the oil a few times, it would stay clean? That seems to be a common theme
with bio-fluids replacing dino-fluids (fuel and lubricants), all the
built up gunk comes out. Biodiesel cleans diesel fuel tanks and puts
lots of gunk in fuel filters. Change filter, keep using biodiesel, no
more gunk.
Thoughts?
-Derek
Tue Nov 7, 2006 11:13 am
#11849 of 11878
Lez <lez.briddon@...>
lez_briddon
Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based
Motor Oils
Yes, but I dont know why, I put it in as a test as I remembered someone
saying small (50cc) race motorcycles did it / tried it in the 80's
When I removed the sump and found the 'rocks' I thought it was a heat
issue that had 'burnt' it, but maybe its something to do with the previous
oil or old deposits being washed out?
I cant afford to experiment with the car on this, I only have the
one car and currently no job so could not buy another one!
Maybe someone else on here as a 'test' vehicle, I expected it to work,
and still think it could....
Lez
Tue Nov 7, 2006 11:04 am
#11850 of 11878
Joe Villines <myascape@...>
myascape
Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
Has anyone ever tried canaola as a replacement for 2-cycle engine
oil? I think I remember hearing about it somewhere before, but can't remember
where. I'll read the report, but try it first in my lawn mower I think...
Joe Villines
MyaScape Enterprises
DBA Joe's Lawn Care
www.joes-lawncare.com
www.myascape.com
(515) 865-8812 (Office)
(515) 770-1767 (Mobile)
For WVO and BioDiesel Supply, please visit:
http://stores.ebay.com/MyaScape-Enterprises
You may also be interested in: http://jvillines.qhealthzone.com/
Tue Nov 7, 2006 11:55 am
#11851 of 11878
Joe Greene <joegreene@...>
jdg1112001
Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils
The best oil for lubrication (if you can get it) is oil from Meadowfoam
seeds. It is used as hydraulic oil. And it is used as a whale oil substitute
in making cosmetics.
Joe Greene
Tue Nov 7, 2006 11:22 am
#11852 of 11878
"Derek" <derek_obanion@...>
derek_obanion
Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils
I might try it. I'll just keep changing it every few days, and see
if it works or doesn't over the long term. Thinking of doing the same with
coolant. Replace all coolant with WVO, and all engine oil with fresh new
canola.
Everything I read says awesome things about plant based oils for lubrication.
Seems like another oil industry conspiracy that we aren't using them now.
Got me paying $25/gal for the best synthetic (dino derived) oil, when $3/gal
canola would work as good or better.
The high boiling point and low freezing point of soybean oil, also
suggests it would make a good coolant. As good as the Evans NPG I use now
at $32.50/gal, but waste soybean is free. If anyone knows of a strong reason
NOT to try it, I ask to speak now.
-Derek
Tue Nov 7, 2006 12:55 pm
#11853 of 11878
"Colin Reed" <reedxuk@...>
reedxuk
Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based
Motor Oils
Have a look for Castrol R30 and R40. They are castor based racing
oils with a very distinctive smell!
Colin
Tue Nov 7, 2006
1:01 pm
#11854 of 11878
"John Bolding" <jnbolding1@...>
jhb478
Re: [vegoil-diesel]
Canola-based Motor Oils
Not a reason
to not TRY it but I'd bet dollars to donuts that the heat transfer rate
is not near as good as water/antifreeze. Water is also able to hold a
LOT of btu per a given cube, have no idea if SVO of some variety comes
close, should be a fun experiment. John
Tue Nov 7, 2006
2:59 pm
#11856 of 11878
"Charles
Weaver" <charles@...>
chimneysweep...
Re: [vegoil-diesel]
Canola-based Motor Oils
Oil dosn't boil
Tue Nov 7, 2006 9:11 pm
#11857 of 11878
Darald Bantel <o1bigtenor@...>
o1bigtenor
Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based
Motor Oils
The heat transfer
capabilities of any oil in comparison to water based coolants SUCK!!!
I do not know the exact differences but as a machinist
the soluble coolants work much better at maintaining temperatures on
the machined parts than when oil based coolants are used. The
oil based coolants are used when there is more of a need for lubrication
and not so much for cooling!
Darald
Wed Nov 8, 2006 12:57 am
#11858 of 11878
Lez <lez.briddon@...>
lez_briddon
Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
Yes but you cant replace your lube oil with water........
Well like I said I ran it for about 3 weeks, pulled the sump
and found it to be lumps of black based rock, but maybe it had washed
that out from somewhere.
Engine ran fine.
Lez
Wed Nov 8, 2006
7:30 am
#11859 of 11878
"Steve
Spence" <sspence@...>
sspence65
RE: [vegoil-diesel]
Canola-based Motor Oils
Vegetable oil
does. At about 650F it boils and will self sustain ignition.
Wed Nov 8, 2006 8:01 am
#11860 of 11878
"Steve Spence" <sspence@...>
sspence65
RE: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
We use a skidloader (bobcat) that is oil cooled.
Tue Nov 7, 2006 7:11 pm
#11861 of 11878
"Kamka" <kamka@...>
nikitakamka
RE: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils
... .but hydraulic oil does not get over 100'C? and does not have
to strugle with soot, unburned-fuel, etc . ..
Wed Nov 8, 2006 11:57 am
#11862 of 11878
<jon@...>
mailitplace
Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils
I am willing to try using vegetable oil as a coolant for a test. I
have a 1990 F350 Diesel pickup that I just recently bought for next to
a steal. It had a slight engine knock to begin with, and It has since developed
a problem of leaking coolant into the oil crankcase and oil into the coolant
system. most likely a blown head gasket, as it was very sudden.
I am going to have to replace the engine or rebuild it any way, so
why not try and see if it will work using oil as a coolant. As far as I
can tell, the best case scenario it will leak into my engine and help with
lubricity and/or fuel mileage...lol I guess we'll see. Worst case is it
will seize the engine. either way, I am not much worse off than before.
I will advise of the results. Experiment to begin next weekend.
Jon Bradshaw
Sulphur Springs, TX
Wed Nov 8, 2006 12:06 pm
#11863 of 11878
Joe Greene <joegreene@...>
jdg1112001
Re: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils
I'm just saying that Meadow Foam seed oil is more suitable as a crankcase
lubricant than some other vegetable oils - except perhaps Castor bean oil.
Such use for any vegetable oil needs to be tested thoroughly - in a lab
preferably.
Also - the Jatropha Curcas plant is a cousin of the Castor bean plant
- so it is possible J. Curcas seed oil should be tested for crankcase use
also.
Joe Greene
Tue Nov 7, 2006 8:49 pm
#11864 of 11878
daniel sprigg <dsprigg01@...>
dsprigg01
RE: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils
Re: xxx [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
Castor oil would be a better choice. it can take the heat. old time
race car drivers used it in the 1950's to the 1970's. caster oil is used
in castrol brand oil blended with dino oil hence the name.
as far as the radiator is concerned. I believe it would be a mistake.
the oil even if very thin would not flow well through the system. and may
not lubricate the water pump sufficiently
Wed Nov 8, 2006 12:44 pm
#11865 of 11878
"Schurr, Larry \(SN\)" <larry.schurr@...>
ppine57
RE: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based
Motor Oils
Do not do this.
Veg oil has 51% of the heat capacity of water. That means that your
entire cooling system, when filled with vegoil, can only disappate (at
equal volumes!) 51% of the heat it used to do. That's not counting flow
losses attributed to a pump and system designed for water and not oil.
L.
Wed Nov 8, 2006 2:29 pm
#11866 of 11878
Peter Adams <petermassure@...>
petermassure
Re: xxx [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
I was under the impression that you could not mix castor oil and normal
hydrocarbon based motor oils, certainly back in the 70's we had to drain
the sump of a Ford Cortina that had mixed the 2 oils in it, the 2 oils
split and had it ran for any length of time the resultant bits would have
blocked the oilways in the bearing and seized the engine.
Pete
Derby UK
Wed Nov 8, 2006 7:30 pm
#11867 of 11873
"Kamka" <kamka@...>
nikitakamka
E: [vegoil-diesel] Canola-based Motor Oils
take one more step ahead : use the same oil for coolant and engine
oil ;-)
we'll be waiting for the report.
Wed Nov 8, 2006 7:36 pm
#11868 of 11878
"Derek" <derek_obanion@...>
derek_obanion
Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
I decided against using WVO as the engine coolant. Not because I think
it won't work, I still think it would. Granted, it won't be able to cool
as well as water, but, my little TDI engine gives off very little heat.
Takes very little to keep it cool.
The reason is because what I was really going for was a way to heat
the WVO directly. Initially, it was toward using WVO as coolant, then using
it as fuel, while topping off the cooling system with cool WVO from a main
storage tank.
But in my late night pondering,
I think I considered a better way. Use WVO as engine oil, and use the
WVO engine oil as fuel. A simple float
level valve would keep the oil level in the crankcase at optimum, constantly
getting topped off from the main WVO storage tank. The fuel pump would
get pressurized oil from after a <1 micron Amsoil bypass filter I
already have on the car. So essentially, the engine oil, which has a
6 quart capacity,
would get completely replaced every ~75 miles of driving. There would
be no time for the oil to get nasty and dirty as is the case with diesels
and soot formation, or break down from repeated thermal stress.
Of course, there would be a backup of petrol diesel for cold starts
when a engine/oil preheater wasn't available.
-Derek
Thu Nov 9, 2006
10:25 am
#11869 of 11878
"Charles
Weaver" <charles@...>
chimneysweep...
Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re:
Canola-based Motor Oils
How about a
few less crackpot ideas on this list?
Thu Nov 9, 2006 6:07 am
#11870 of 11878
"Schurr, Larry \(SN\)" <larry.schurr@...>
ppine57
RE: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
Uhm, WVO is even WORSE for crankcase lube than it is for radiator
coolant. Where your F350 might overheat by simply driving uphill with WVO
in the rad, your F350 will simply SHELL itself with WVO in the crankcase.
This will not be pretty. Stomach acid makes a poor replacement for
tears. Bile fares poorly in your lungs. There are substances in your colon
that belong no where else. Your automobile was designed after very much
similar thinking.
WVO makes a good replacement for diesel fuel, but that's about as
far as it goes.
L.
Thu Nov 9, 2006 8:19 am
#11871 of 11873
"defenderoflibert" <tag7@...>
defenderofli...
Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
I think that would be a great idea. The key will be coming up with
a good design. A float level may or may not be the best way to maintain
optimal oil level. I think that an oil pressure actuated valve might be
the best route to go. Since most modern engines pump oil from the crankcase
up to the head, and have a oil pressure sensor in them, you may want to
try to figure out a way to control the flow of fresh oil based on the oil
pressure. I think it would be a great idea to have the fresh oil pumped
directly into the valve cover and have the warm oil pumped from the bottom
of the crankcase, through a filter, and to the injectors. One side benefit
(I think) would be that you probably wouldn't have to replace your engine
oil filter as often as long as the oil is filtered before being pumped
into the engine.
Tim Logsdon
Thu Nov 9, 2006 8:08 am
#11873 of 11873
"defenderoflibert" <tag7@...>
defenderofli...
Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
I think this might be a good idea for someone whose head gasket leaks,
causing the coolant and engine oil to intermingle.
Thu Nov 9, 2006 12:38 pm
#11875 of 11878
Jeffrey Brooks <jhanananda@yahoo.com>
jhanananda
Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/vegoil-diesel/message/11875
Hello friends of vegiediesel, Lez, Derek, Colin, Darald, Steve, Kamka,
Joe Greene, Joe Villines, Charles, Jon Bradshaw, Larry, defenderoflibert;
and thank-you all for posting your most interesting comments to this thread.
I am with Derek on cycling
WVO through the engine as a lubricant and thus heating it prior to combustion. I am also in agreement with
using it as a coolant. Arguably, Darald is correct, oil does not
have the heat capacity of water, however, winter time is the time to conduct
such an experiment, and why not do it on a vehicle that already has a blown
head gasket? At least water wont be getting into the engine any more.
I hope Jon Bradshaw does
his experiment so that we can all benefit from his courage to try it
on an old engine. I would suggest those who
are going to conduct these experiments do so on an old but working diesel
engine. That way, if the engine dies, who cares?
Also, for those who want
to run oil as the coolant, then I would suggest that you flush the cooling
system out really well before introducing oil,
because you would not want to mix propylene glycol in with your oil. Also,
you would want to dry the engine out first by running heated air through
it over night, that way no water gets into your oil either.
Finally, I had thought about coolant scale sloughing off into the
oil, but if one ran distilled water as the base for the coolant for a few
weeks and maybe even changed the water out weekly, then the coolant system
would most probably be descaled within a few weeks.
I like Derek's idea of a coolant pre-heater in this case.
The article Canola-based
Motor Oils suggests that the sludge
found by Lez may very well be sludge that was flushed out of the system. It
would be interesting for people to report on this sludge to see if it reduces
over time and if so how quickly. The article also suggests that
the first oil change would show significant sludge, but there after there
should
be a noticeable reduction for the first three changes, then a definite
lack of sludge after that.
In response to Kamka's question regarding the use of other vegetable
oils: From research I did on the engineering specs of a wide range of vegetable
oils, it appears that all have closely related properties boiling at about
500 F and pour point at about 32 F (0 c), and perform adequately as lubricants
and hydraulic fluids.
For Joe Greene, I have
not heard of oil from Meadowfoam seeds, however I am familiar with a
jojoba oil, which comes from a Southwestern USA native
seed source. It has been for a replacement for transmission fluid.
Sources:
Canola-based Motor Oils by Duane
L. Johnson, Blaine Rhodes, and Robert Allen, Reprinted from: Trends in
new crops and new uses. 2002. J. Janick and A. Whipkey (eds.). ASHS Press,
Alexandria, VA.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/rightlivelihood/fuel/Canola_Oil_as_Lubricant.pdf
Thu Nov 9, 2006 1:50 pm
#11876 of 11878
"Steve Spence" <sspence@...>
sspence65
RE: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
Using wvo as fuel, coolant,
and lubricant is not a crackpot idea. It's a workable theory that needs
the bugs worked out to be practical.
We have been working on this idea for a bit ourselves. The main thing
is to keep the lubricating oil in constant flush to the fuel system,
never
let it "sit" around, constantly replenish it.
Thu Nov 9, 2006 10:34 pm
#11877 of 11878
Darald Bantel <o1bigtenor@...>
o1bigtenor
RE: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
Considering that about 60 to 65% of the energy in diesel fuel (would
be very much the same in veg oil/biodiesel) is released from the engine
in the form of heat (I do not remember the ratio of heat from the engine
to heat in the exhaust) I do NOT think that using oil for all aspects in
an engine is a serious long term solution!
As I live in an environment where I need heat for 7 to 8 months of
the year (with a little possible demand for cooling for 2 to 3 months in
a precision work place) I am approaching the problem in a very different
fashion. I want a diesel that is as efficient as possible. (At 400 kW or
larger I found an engine that uses under 195 g/kWhr!!) Then I want to use
the waste heat for heating so if things are working well that I get the
35 to 37 % (maybe 40 % if things work well) of the energy in the fuel for
motive poser (generator drive in this case) trying to collect another 40
% of the energy for heating. This drastically reduces my costs and gives
me a very good ROI.
Now if I could get something where I could cut costs further (ie total
system costs) I'm interested. In trying things like replacing the cooling
system with a fuel preheat system seem to be retrograde!
Do keep careful track of as many of your variables as possible whilst
you experiment then others may decide to replicate your effort to validate
it and then anyone can decide if the probably nuisance value is worth the
reduction in cost (if any!).
Darald
Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:02 am
#11878 of 11878
"Steve Spence" <sspence@...>
sspence65
RE: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
We already use it for cooling in a skidloader. The skid loader was
set up for oil cooling, so that was easy. It just has a bigger radiator
and high flow for enhanced heat transfer.
Thu Nov 9, 2006 2:28 pm
#11879 of 11879
Garret F Crisler <gcrisler@...>
gcrisler1
Re: [vegoil-diesel] Re: Canola-based Motor Oils
I have a Toyota Previa 1995 minivan that has a seperate oil reservior.
It uses some sorta float system to maintain the level. I don't know anymore
about it, but it might be a place to look.
Garret Criselr
Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:41 am
#11880 of 11880
Jeffrey Brooks <jhanananda@yahoo.com>
jhanananda
Re: Canola-based
Motor Oils
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/vegoil-diesel/message/11880
Hello friends of vegiediesel,
Peter; Daniel, John, Lez, Steve, Darald and others; and thank-you
all for posting your most interesting additional comments to this
thread. I
am sorry that I missed some of your comments, because for some reason
someone changed the thread title, so certain contributions to this
thread were not retained with the original thread. I am not sure
why someone would change the thread title, perhaps to prevent certain
comments from being included in the over-all thread. Oh well,
different strokes for different folks.
In response
to Peter's comment about petroleum oil and vegetable oil being immiscible,
meaning that they wont mix: I have found no evidence to this in
my original experiment of putting vegetable oil into my crank case, I
did not remove the original petroleum oil, I just started putting vegetable
oil in because I had 2 gallons of filtered recycled vegetable oil with
me, but no motor oil and my old leaker needed more oil, so I put it in. I
saw no evidence later that they did not mix.
Also, 6 months
earlier, just for fun, I cut recycled vegetable oil with 20% unleaded
gasoline (petrol) and found the two fluids mixed readily. So,
I have concluded that most probably most vegetable oils will mix
readily
with most petroleum cuts.
Regarding Daniel's
concern that the water pump would not be lubricated by replacing
the water with oil in the cooling system: no offense, but this concern
doesn't
make any sense to me, because vegetable oil is a well established
lubricant, thus the water pump should be well lubricated by oil, even
better so
than with water; although arguably vegetable oil is more viscous
than water, but then so is propylene glycol.
However, what
should be of concern to anyone conducting this experiment is seals
and hoses that were designed for water and/or petroleum oil, may degrade
with the introduction or long running use of vegetable oils. Does
anyone know if the standard seals and hoses for petroleum will work with
vegetable oil? I know when I bought hoses for my vegie transfer
pump, the hose supplier seemed to think I needed a different and
more expensive hose than is used for petroleum.
Regarding Darald's
use of a stationary engine running a generator, I think his idea of recycling
the waste heat to heat water with a liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger for
space heating, is brilliant; however, I do not see why he would want
to go to the trouble of replacing the water-propylene glycol mix with
oil, unless he just wanted a thoroughly non-toxic system, which is what
one would end up with if one converted all of the fluids in one's engine
to vegetable oil.
For heating
a living/workspace with waste heat I would think one could simply
have a large water reservoir that functions as ballast and cooling
system
for the engine and a warm water reservoir for a radiator style hot
water heating system for spacing heating. All of that plumbing
technology is in place and all one needs to do is plumb a hot water
space heating
system into the thermostat output of the engine, and boom, your in.
Where I would
get my vegetable oil pre-heater is by plumbing a loop through the oil
pan (sump) from the fuel pump and thus lube the crankcase with vegetable
oil and taping a T into the oil sender and direct that to the intake
on the fuel filter, which goes to the injector pump.
Best regards,